What’s your favorite...

[dogdoc]

food plot seed for the spring. I have always had great success with planting iron and clay cowpeas. They always come up great, really drought resistance and handle the Oklahoma heat very well. The deer also just love the tender green foliage of the peas. I have been thinking of planting some lablab but after research I don't know if the added cost of the lablab seed compared to the cowpeas will be worth it. Just wondering if any of you has seen a difference in the palability of the two.

thanks
todd

[Habitat]

Every place is different and responses may be different so take this with a grain of salt. Deer like both cowpeas and lablab, but in one case I'm familiar with, where both were planted in alternating rows, the deer went down the lablab rows and ate it to the ground and left the cowpeas alone. I've also heard of cases where deer did not know what lablab was and did not eat it well until they "learned" that it is good stuff. There may be an adjustment period with any new food plot item, so don't judge it on the very first observations. This may be especially true with turnips, tyfon or other forage brassica's.

[4x4man514]

i planted lab lab once and the thing i noticed was how rapidly it grew.when i planted beans the deer would come in, wipe them out, and that would be it for the plot.the lab lab was constantly rebounding.the deer werent able to wipe the crop out.

[Thayer.qdma]

If my plot is just starting do you thing I could get the weeds knocked down enuf to allow the lablab to take over. I did the RR soybeans to hit the plot and kill the weed all summer long, but I would rather do lablab.

[Chad Dauthier]

There isn't a herbicide that you can use right now to kill anything but lablab. Being as it is and exotic "weed" anything you will jit it with will kill it as well. We had a program last Sept. where they planted about 15 different items, including lab lab, tested it twice for protien % and diegstible nutrients, observed usage, heartiness, cost, ease of plating and control, and for my money, I will never plant a thing in the spring and summer any more but Alyce clover. However, as habitat said, every place is different. this is south LA, so it may not work for you guys in the north.

[Danny_GA]

Chad

Did you try deer vetch in the 15 items you tested. If so, how did it do? I am thinking about trying a mixture of deer vetch and alyce clover in some of my plots this summer. I am looking for something that will hold up better to intensive grazing pressure.

Danny

[BMason]

Lab Lab, Cow Peas, Aeschynomene americana (a.k.a. Deer Vetch), and clovers are all legumes. There are selective herbicides (such as Post) that control most grasses and forbs but will not harm legumes. Or so they claim. I've never personally tried them. But I would be interested in knowing what types of experiences others have had who have used them to control weed competition in their food plots.

[Habitat]

Weeds can be a big problem in warm season food plots. A few possbile ways to combat them: Plant lablab or other crop in rows, rather than close spaced, with no-till planter to reduce the amount of fresh soil disturbance. Plant lablab in rows (30" - 40" between rows) and use the traditional farming technique of cultivating between rows. Yes that is a lot of trouble, but that's what real farmers do if they want to have the highest possibillity of success. In fact, mimicing what local farmers do is pretty good advice in general. With broadleaf forages like lablab, cowpea, soybean, might be able to use some of the "yellow herbicides" that selectively work on grasses and some seedling broadleaf weeds. Of course need to realize also that not all "weeds" bad. It is very common to see that deer eat many of the weeds that grow in food plots.

[Chad Dauthier]

Post will kill lab lab. Currently, none of the items on the market (unless it has just come out on the past couple of months) will kill weeds but not lab lab.

Danny, the vetch did good, and stood up to heavy grazing, but it did not have the nutritional content that the Alyce did. Mind you, it was relatively high in protien, but it lacked in the digestible nutrients department (the amount of protien they can actually digest). I will try to dig up the sheet that had it all laid out with protien % and % digestible. It was some pretty interesting stuff. BTW, the peas couldn't hold a candle. Especially in the sizes that many of us plant food plots. Now if you want to plant 50 acres or so of the stuff, it would probably be pretty good to do.

[Danny_GA]

Chad

I look forward to seeing your spreadsheet. I had always thought that beans were the ultimate warm season annual for taste, protein content, and digestabilty. I was only looking at the vetch and Alyce Clover as a substitute. Sounds like I have found something better.

Danny

[dogdoc]

For the last several springs I have planted a spring mixture that is mixed locally here for wildlife plots--mainly targets for deer and turkey. It contains vetch (which variety I am not sure) but the deer here will not touch it--the turkeys will eat the seed when it seeds out. However, it sure looks pretty in the plot. The deer absolutely devour the cowpeas and soybeans in the mixture.

I too have trouble with weeds in the spring plot and was also thinking of skipping the mixture for one year and planting RR soybeans so I can try to control the weeds for one year then going back to a mixture.

todd

[Chad Dauthier]

Yeah, the beans and peas are a wondeful food for them, and they will gobble them up. But therein lies the problem. they will not replenish themselves near as fast as will the Alyse and the vetch. That is why so much of them is needed. But, I am like you. I have never had much luck with vetch. I can plant acres of the stuff and I have never been able to get them to eat it.

The test plots we had also had the enclosures to show how much growth it should have actually had. The peas and beans were as expected. They were fairly short, and the enclosed section had about 18" of growth.
The alyce was still about 12-16 inches tall without the enclosure, but the enclosed section was thick and matted, and about 3 foot tall. Anyway, I am going to look right now for that stuff. I may back with another post in a sec....

[4x4man514]

when i planted lab lab it grew waste high and it was so thick the weeds didnt have a chance.i thought it was a tremendous success but i planted in an old pasture.prime conditions may have been what led to my prime plot.

[Chad Dauthier]

I am having rpblems locating the info I was talking about. I will have to see if I can dig a little deeper....

[Chad Dauthier]

Wow, I found it!! OK here is some of the stuff. Remember this was on our plots, correctly fertilized and limed, with everything taken into consideration.


SeedTotal digestible nutrientsProtien
date6/258/5 6/258/5
Soybeans 77.876.735.225.6
Lab Lab82.179.333.117.0
Buckwheat67.052.316.811.9
Joint Vetch80.277.829.731.7
Alyce Clover61.869.326.626.4
Iron Clay peas 81.877.932.329.1

The deal behind the Clover is that it produced the most amount of forage. While it is not the highest in protien or digestible nutrients, it produced the most forage for the size plots, and in turn, equalizes out any loss in protien. Also, it was one of the cheaper seeds, only costing about $44.67 per acre to plant (seed, fertilizer, and lime).

These numbers were taken using the plots we had that were under fence and not available for the deer to eat. We also had plots 50 yards away that were avaliable for the very healthy resident population, and the browse was severe on some of the slower growing plots such as beans. The clover, for my money was the best one I saw.

We are having another program this April dealing with cool season grasses. I am looking forward to that one as well, and will have the results for you.

For info sake, these are programs we had in conjunction with the LDWF, LSU and the Louisiana Dept of Ag. They did the actual testing.

[Chad Dauthier]

By the way, the biologists who worked with it and monitored the plots closely also recommended the Alyce highly as well. Like they said, if you are going to be plating acres and acres, beans or peas are wondeful. But for the average Joe like me, who only has these 1-2 acre plots, they simply will not produce fast enough for the deer to get much benefit from them.

[Danny_GA]

Chad

Thanks for the info. I was afraid that you would not be able to find it.

I understand that the deer vetch is more tolerant of acidic soils. My new plots start with a pH of 5.2 so I will plant the vetch on those plots along with a big dose of lime. On my plots already adjusted for pH I will plant a mixture of vetch and Alyce Clover.

Danny

[dogdoc]

What is the longevity of Alyce Clover. Is it a long perenial--if so is it by reseeding or come back by root? I also have read or heard that Alyceclover is not a true clover.

Chad, just out of curiosity, on your plots did you see any preference or palability between soybeans and cowpeas? The reason I am asking is because I had a terrible time with weeds on a new spring plot I planted last year---it was a mixture but mainly iron and clay. The deer just devoured the iron and clay---but by the end of the summer 1/2 the plot was invaded by ragweed. I am seriously considering planting roundup ready soybeans this year so I can get a couple of sprayings in thru the summer to try to get rid of all the ragweed.


thanks
todd

[Thayer.qdma]

What are your thoughts on a vetch, trefoil, and red clover, ladino mix? Somewhat acidic soil, first time plot, well drained, clay soil. I like all the above plants for the forage value, palatability, protein, but do you think this overdone with the mix? I am hoping for a full spring and summer crop. I would love to do lablab but the plot is less than 3/4 acre.

[dogdoc]

thayer, i have planted all of the plants you have listed. In the same soil conditions. The ladino grew the worse in the soil which i am sure is due to the pH---it was 5.9. It still did ok but not what I thought it should do. The deer still ate it very well. The red clover did great in both growth and palability. I got 2 years out of the red clover. I just planted trefoil this year so can't give you a lot of feedback on it---it seems to be doing fine. The vetch did great on the clay/acidic soil--the only problem is the deer wouldn't touch it---don't know if that is the norm or not--but the turkeys utilized the seed.

todd

todd

[Danny_GA]

It may be regional differences but I hear reports of good browsing levels on the deer vetch in Georgia. Something I will keep in mind though is the palatabilty may be influenced by the soil pH/fertility.

Danny

[Thayer.qdma]

Thanks guys, I will try to do pics of before and after and also a soil test of before and after.

[Chad Dauthier]

Far as I know Alyce will have to be replanted every year. If it does come to seed, I haven't seen it as the deer eat it down before it gets to that point.

Soybeans and cowpeas both got mowed to the ground. Don't allow yourself to be led by the numbers alone though. They produced good quality forage in the pens. Outside of the pens, they were devoured to the point that they were useless in a plot. If you have a large area, go right ahead (although your post seemed to indicate that they had eaten it to the ground). It is one of the best choices. If not, don't waste your money. I will have to check, though. I think you can effectively spray peas with R4D.

Lab Lab produced lots and lots of forage, and should hold up as well as anything to the browsing. Also, on further review, I gave out some really bad information. It can be effective sprayed to control weeds. However, as the previous post indicated, it drops off in protien value significantly, and I am unsure as to when the dropoff occurs. I may drop off really quickly, and make it's effectiveness even less than what the numbers show. Even if not, the decrease in protien levels is what amazed me. Deer here are still growing antlers into September, and if it followed the same trend, the lablab would have even been less nutrituous than it was in early August. That is why I chose the Alyce. it was very consistent and if the deer become acclimated to it, and depend on it for antler growth, they won't see a severe reduction at a time that it matters most.

Danny, the vetch is good in protien levels and TDN levels. And I guess it would just depend on if you can get them to eat it. Where I see it being a problem is that it produces less forgae than many other plants. The plants do grow large, but are mainly a woody stem with small leaves. Once the leaves are gone, the stems provide little nutrition. I would think if they were browsed on heavily, they would not regenrate quick enough to be effective. I may be totally wrong on this, as it is just my opinion.

[4x4man514]

why is it everytime i formulate a plan someone comes along with new information and blows it out of the water?i relly want to do the best thing but i dont know what it is anymore.my supplemental feedings are canned because of economics and now the lablab i was counting ion has a problem!i have about 20 plots no bigger than maybe a 1/2 acre apiece.i know browsing pressure will be heavy and the lablab i planted before should be able to handle it.But if it loses its protein shortly after planting ,what good is it.our soils are sandy well-drained soils and i have never had much success with clover in it.im gonna try some alfa-graze or alfa-rack this year but dont want to bet the farm on it.plus the clovers and alfalfas ive planted in the past gave me alot of trouble for spring plantings because of competitions with weeds.what other types of high protein plants are there out there that are drought and browse tolerant?thanks guys kevin.

[dogdoc]

4X4 I don't know if there is a perfect plant--that is why i like to plant a variety----Even toward the end of the summer the lablab had a protein % of over 17. Even though the antlers are still growing in august 17% isn't too bad---especially compared to native browse---you also have to take into effect the total digestibility of the plant. During the doe lactation and early to mid antler growth you still have a very good protein level in the lablab. I still think lablab is a great choice but to answer your question, if you can get the alfalfa to grow it handles heavy browsing and as you know it has a deep root so also handles droughts. Two other plants you might want to consider is chicory and trefoil. Trefoil is very similiar to alfalfa but it is much easier to grow.

good luck
todd

[Chad Dauthier]

dogdoc, check those figures. It has a protien % of 17, but the digestible nutrients % was only 79.3, which makes for a net protien % of only 13.4% (the amount that they would actually get). You can do just as well or better fertilizing the native vegitation. I have seen where some native browse in Texas has protien levels of as high as 40%. And Texas isn't known for their high quality browse....

Also, like I said, once you introduce an initially high protien feed to a deer, and then lose it very rapidly, I think that it may even be detrimental. But again, that is very unscientific and only my opinion.

4X4, when all totalled, you have around 10 acres or so to plant it sounds like. Depending on what other native foods are available, and what type of herd you have, and how large the property is, you may very well be able to plant the roundup ready beans, or clay peas. Both are good in protien and TDN, and with 10 acres planted, they may just very well produce enough feed for the deer. Just take into account how much other browse is in the area for the deer to feed on.

[dogdoc]

Here is an article comparing the utilization and protein difference of cowpeas and lablab. It was done by Texas A&M University. It actually found that 180 days after planting the lablab had a higher protein % than cowpeas. The results are a quite a bit difference than the ones above. I believe several enviromental differences my effect the protein levels as well as proper fertilization. Here is the link:

cowpeas vs lablab (http://overton.tamu.edu/forage98/fd98deer.htm)

todd

[Chad Dauthier]

You are absolutely right on that. Like I said originally, this was only what we saw, on our plots, in our area, with our condiditons. It shouldn't be used as a "fix all" for every area.

[Thayer.qdma]

It looks to me that lablab is a great plant for late spring and summer forage. If my clover, and vetch will take off, my chicory and lablab should provide a substantial amount of forage when there could be a lacking in available browse. Thanx for the great info. Jeff

[4x4man514]

does anyone have any protein #s for chicory and terfoil?i read in one place that trefoil doesnt grow good in the south,is this true?what kind of phs do they like.chicory is a brassica, right?


one more question, does anybody recommend an annual spring planting that would do well mixed with the lablab?

thanks,Kevin.

[Justwin24]

Anyone had any experience with Buckwheat and deer. I was thinking of planting it early spring due to its tolerance to low ph. Then in summer disk in lablab and then toss in some rye near frost time.

Is this a feasible plan? The plot is in SC so I'm guessing the heat will kill the buckwheat bout the time to toss seed the LABLAB.

[dogdoc]

I planted a fall deer mix last fall that contains a high % of trefoil---so far it has done well--it is a little slow to get established as a lot of perenials are. The mix also contained chicory. Both chicory and trefoil can obtain protein levels of over 30%--that is probably in optimum conditions (proper fertilization, proper pH, high quality soil, proper moisture). Don't know how far south you are---i am in central oklahoma.

I planted buckwheat 2 years in a row---it came up great--quick to mature---the deer never touched it but the turkeys loved the seed---those feathered friends did not leave one seed on the ground---planted about 1 acre of it. Gave up on it after 2 years due to the deer never touching it.

todd

[mikeolivertx]

I keep digging for this one, so I bumped it to the front
SORRY